Everything about everything and nothing

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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by x Nacht Klaue x on Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:35 am

There is no antisexual app Sad
It had been fun with a antisexual chat app..
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by x Nacht Klaue x on Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:37 am

There is no antisexual app Sad
It had been fun with a antisexual chat app..
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:43 pm

https://sputniknews.com/us/201703101051464925-cia-leaks-message-for-trump/

CIA secrets being leaked. This is just a news report on it, not the actual documents. I consider this interesting.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:32 pm

Determinism

I agree with your statements. Squid Jar
But the issue brings up other thought experiments

1. If a choice doesn't occur to a person, did they have a choice?
I would argue that they had the choice to not educate themselves to be more aware of choices they could make. But then it goes in a loop. I don't want to talk about this too much, just explaining the idea. 
(Though worth noting this helped me see an aspect of Christianity in a new light. The whole "knowledge of good and evil" thing bringing in the capacity to "sin" or to choose evil. I guess it's the same concept.)

2. Feelings, this is what people argue with about sexual orientations. For example, could you choose to get angry at a fork? Is that a thing outside of your scope of choice?
I mean maybe it's possible to get angry at a fork, and of course this isn't a 1:1 comparison to sexual orientation.

But yes, there's a whole (soft-)science of choices.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by xenosimiana on Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:52 am

Speaking of Christianity, or the existence of a god,, choices, free will etc. what bothered me about the Abrahamic religions (those I'm more familiar with) was omniscience and how god is perfect. I remember hearing an argument mainly towards the concepts of the Abrahamic religions that if god is perfect, then everything should be,, and since it isn't, there's no point of anything being in existence. Implying that there wouldn't be a need for this god to create anything, I think it's a good point. But, when I think of nature, and Bertrand Russell's point of it being "tyrannical non-human power" and how impotent we are to it;  and of course slaves to it (esp. for sexuals who like to use the nature to justification) it's not any better, but our minds  i.e. Ideals is what helps free us  with regards to indignation, stoic freedom, resignation etc. Some of it:

"But gradually, as morality grows bolder, the claim of the ideal world begins to be felt; and worship, if it is not to cease, must be given to gods of another kind than those created by the savage. Some, though they feel the demands of the ideal, will still consciously reject them, still urging that naked Power is worthy of worship. Such is the attitude inculcated in God's answer to Job out of the whirlwind: the divine power and knowledge are paraded, but of the divine goodness there is no hint. Such also is the attitude of those who, in our own day, base their morality upon the struggle for survival, maintaining that the survivors are necessarily the fittest. But others, not content with an answer so repugnant to the moral sense, will adopt the position which we have become accustomed to regard as specially religious, maintaining that, in some hidden manner, the world of fact is really harmonious with the world of ideals. Thus Man creates God, all-powerful and all-good, the mystic unity of what is and what should be.

But the world of fact, after all, is not good; and, in submitting our judgment to it, there is an element of slavishness from which our thoughts must be purged. For in all things it is well to exalt the dignity of Man, by freeing him as far as possible from the tyranny of non-human Power. When we have realised that Power is largely bad, that man, with his knowledge of good and evil, is but a helpless atom in a world which has no such knowledge, the choice is again presented to us: Shall we worship Force, or shall we worship Goodness? Shall our God exist and be evil, or shall he be recognised as the creation of our own conscience?

The answer to this question is very momentous, and affects profoundly our whole morality. The worship of Force, to which Carlyle and Nietzsche and the creed of Militarism have accustomed us, is the result of failure to maintain our own ideals against a hostile universe: it is itself a prostrate submission to evil, a sacrifice of our best to Moloch. If strength indeed is to be respected, let us respect rather the strength of those who refuse that false "recognition of facts" which fails to recognise that facts are often bad. Let us admit that, in the world we know, there are many things that would be better otherwise, and that the ideals to which we do and must adhere are not realised in the realm of matter. Let us preserve our respect for truth, for beauty, for the ideal of perfection which life does not permit us to attain, though none of these things meet with the approval of the unconscious universe. If Power is bad, as it seems to be, let us reject it from our hearts. In this lies Man's true freedom: in determination to worship only the God created by our own love of the good, to respect only the heaven which inspires the insight of our best moments. In action, in desire, we must submit perpetually to the tyranny of outside forces; but in thought, in aspiration, we are free, free from our fellow-men, free from the petty planet on which our bodies impotently crawl, free even, while we live, from the tyranny of death. Let us learn, then, that energy of faith which enables us to live constantly in the vision of the good; and let us descend, in action, into the world of fact, with that vision always before us."

But  with all that said,  still, even the mind isn't invulnerable.....so, many ppl probably wouldn't even consider something similar to this. It doesn't quite get close enough to what u guys talking about (probably)...me rambling and typing a damn essay...anyway.

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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:10 pm

Indie films.

I'm conflicted
Like this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHAuGA7gqFU
It's...fine. The message is...fine.
But like talk about anvilicious.
Another thing Indie films like to do is shock value.

And because of this indie films can get very. odd.
Lots of films about people shouting homosexual slurs at clowns with unsettling music.

In fact I'm starting to wonder if "unsettling music" is the signal that you should probably skip the indie film. Oh no im so scared of your illustration of a racist government making people bad for having brown hair. Yes, so deep, I'm so disturbed.

But there's still some good indie films.


PS: lol when researching indie films a second ago I found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILxP0w6BOeQ
The funny part is I couldn't actually tell it was a parody until like halfway through.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:09 am

what is this
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Squid Jar on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:37 pm

Re. Choices

Choice is a fuzzy word and it's difficult to meaningfully engage with those questions without nailing down a reasonably solid definition of choice. 

How would knowing whether or not someone could choose to get angry at a fork change your expectations for future experiences?
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:54 pm

Hmm, well you do point out it's a rather benign choice. But it's something I was thinking of at the time.

In fact, you could argue you don't choose a lot of things. Lots of things (Like who you meet on the street, in class or your neighborhood. People who can influence you by sharing their knowledge.) are arguably out of your control. 

Is this what you're saying? (That my chosen example was esoteric) or are you trying to model what a choice is for discussion.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Squid Jar on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:58 pm

I'm just trying to pin down what it means for someone to have a choice.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:56 pm

If I asked you to pick one thing or another thing (or none of the above). I'd consider that the baseline of what a choice is.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Squid Jar on Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:19 am

Alright, in that case if you ask someone to pick between getting angry at a fork or not getting angry at a fork then they can choose to get angry at a fork.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:30 am

I suppose for that illustration I was talking about how much one has in control of their emotions. Since emotions are more how you feel then how you think.
If someone says they are angry, and gives reason for it, but doesn't actually feel much anger are they still angry? I'd actually side with you and say yes.

My original question was more about choosing how to "feel" though. Does that make it more clear?
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Squid Jar on Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:44 pm

Whether someone can choose how to feel depends on the definition of 'choice' we're using.

I think it's most useful to say that someone made a choice if, and only if, they conciously considered some alternatives, then conciously intended to execute one of the alternatives, and then they executed the intended alternative. Using a definition like that, I would say no, people don't generally choose their feelings. They also don't generally choose their thoughts. Additionally, I don't think the topic of determinism has much to do with the topic of choice (as defined here).
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:41 pm

" people don't generally choose their feelings. They also don't generally choose their thoughts."

I argue that feelings are generally guided by you're identity which can be formed through choices. If you found a reason to be angry at the fork you could.
Thoughts are a broad concept so I won't say much about that.

"Additionally, I don't think the topic of determinism has much to do with the topic of choice (as defined here)."
It's related, both talk about the spectrum of choice.

--------

On this subject I want to rant about sexual orientations..again. Without defining what a sexual orientation is, just how it's used.
How sexual orientation is view (particularly in LGBT and LGBT-acceptance places)
the scientific consensus is that sexual orientation is not a choice.[12][13][14]
From Wikipedia. I'm also not going to define choice. I'm just going to note how LGBT communities have ran with this concept. 
"BORN THIS WAY" for example, and comparing sexual expression to skin colour. (Not a 1:1 obviously, but I'm not going to define how comparable they're viewed).

The reason I'm not defining any of these is because inherently they mean something different to each person. Not only in how they view themselves, but also in how they understand the language, whether they just believed some political mantra, or tried to scientifically study it. I'm starting to question whether sexual orientation has even a consensus of what it is.

lol, I say the same thing about sexuality in general, idiots dont even understand why they do it or look at it critically. However this isn't a dig, it's just me looking at people and how they act.

LGBT pushed it, sometimes to the extreme of "If you have homosexual tendencies you should have gay sex.". This wasn't even fringe, I see people on Twitter regularly say, "Yeah you can't be tolerant of homosexuals but disagree with their sexuality."
So sexuality can't be questioned, and I guess it's supposed to be like an ethnic race you have no choice in.

How people use these terms (As seen on some posts in AVEN welcome lounge)
Then you look at AVEN and see newbies struggling to apply themselves to this vaguely defined concept.
Like here they are trying to apply LOGIC to their identity hahaha. They usually look back at how everyone else thinks around them and why they didn't like what everyone else likes. Though they don't really ask why. Perhaps they don't want to speculate how other people think and feel it's rude?
But they speak not of this. It's bigoted to question sexuality, especially on an LGBT-afilliated forum.
So they don't end up questioning such things, who cares about thinking through the why's? "asexual" is an LGBT certified ...uhhh magic-state-of-sexual-being (Because of course LGBT are EXPERTS on sexuality). So I'm asexual I guess? I dont really know what it is, but I dont "like" sex (That thing I cant criticize) so yeah I'm an asexual.

Questions
1. Is most of this nonsense because people CANT CRITICIZE sex? Is that the blind spot?
1b. HOW FAR can you criticize sex as a non-antisexual?
Because while I've seen good arguments against promiscuity and ehh ones-that-make-sense-but-I-disagree-with regarding homosexuality. I do think it's a platform one could run on. However, this whole "comparing it to a race" shuts it down, because at some arbitrary line one isn't responsible for their sexuality.

And I say arbitrary because it really is arbitrary.

I've seen homosexuals who abstain from homosexual sex for religious reasons or other reasons. And on the flipside I've seen people try to push orientations further in their lives to shoo away criticism.

I legit on AVEN found a blog where a person wrote a long post about how BDSM was an orientation. And wrote like they were the most confident academix sex-researcher on the subject (Though most of it was ancedotal).
The reason seemed to be, that they enjoyed BDSM, but couldn't explain it. (Thus logically, it's not a choice! I guess...? I mean I could probably explain it's just adrenaline, possible bad mental issues you need to talk through and oxytocin you druggie)

Really though, if we're going to do this, like I don't really have a problem with racists. They were just born that way! Let's go full deterministic on this topic. woo.

Anyways, maybe I was ignorant or misrepresentative in this post. Maybe I just don't understand sexual models because I don't identify sexually! ORRRrr maybe I just don't understand sexual models because it's a BS system that I never bought into. Leave your criticism.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:49 pm

Oh question 2
2. Is identifying with something that is not really clear a problem?

I mean in todays culture, with identity politics. loloololololol. why the heck did I ask this question? Let me rephrase it.

2a. Is todays pushed culture that one doesn't need to explain or challenge their identity good?
2b. Is it still good when you consider not everyone buys into that idea and WILL challenge your identity? (I feel there are two sides to this)
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by xenosimiana on Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:50 am

With question 2 I don't see the problem with identity being challenged. After all, it's apart of culture and culture is something many people take for granted. It amazes me sometimes how certain countries like the U.S. is multicultural but most don't seem to truly understand that almost everything that makes up society isn't really natural, it's invention. One thing I can't stand (at least most of the time) is vagueness and the lack of introspect.  

When it comes to comparing sexual identity with race, I can't help feeling angry most of the time, because I feel that sexual feelings and "orientations" seem to be more prone to change or chaotic (maybe I'm wrong). Like they're a little more vulnerable at varying levels. 

For example, one could be "straight" for the majority of their life, and they view some kind of homosexual act, then their brain stores it or something and now the individual starts to have sexual feelings for the same sex and vice versa. The same extending to various "kinks" and "fetishes" which was repulsive at first, now it's appealing. It's conditioning...the debate on nature vs. nurture, which is it or which carries more weight. I think even with things that we don't have control over, we do have some control over what to do with it. Most people (I even include myself) are in boxes (but at least I know or feel that I'm in one, just trying to figure out where and how to get out).

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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by xenosimiana on Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:55 am

Another thing that bothers me sometimes is the excessive feelings of pride and not truly seeing the faults. (This is probably going to be vague) There's nothing wrong with having self confidence and accepting who you are and wanting to be accepted within society when it comes to certain things, but I think there's some difference between acceptingness and thinking that certain qualities about yourself is healthy, good, logical, normal, or even superior (I can't really think of a more accurate word) when it's not entirely true. But the problem is what determines that.

Ok, let's say there's a community of deaf people that's proud to be deaf. And when a child is born deaf, the community is overjoyed at this while they view those that can hear as the ones as flawed because of how awful they made them feel. To a certain extent, it's justified because it's a coping mechanism but extreme because their ears aren't functioning properly. Why be prideful about the fact that you can't hear well? Why would you feel joy about someone being born without the ability to hear properly? 

I feel that you just accept it. And of course you want people to respect you and to look and value other aspects about yourself especially since you're still able to survive and contribute. It might sound harsh to some, maybe narrow minded, but I'm open to critique as well. 

I'll stop here, I'm getting a little tired of thinking, plus I probably went off topic.

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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:41 pm

On top of that it's annoying as heck seeing asexuals fears. All of which are because of idiotic sexuals.

Oh I need to have sex so I wont be lonely.
Oh I need to have sex so ill be accepted.
Oh I need to LIKE sex so ill be accepted.
Oh I'm broken because I never felt this mystical pull to like sex that everyone claims to have.

And when I attack the weakening of identity (This whole gender thing is similar, gender is completely arbitrary). This is a concerning aspect. Because what's the use of identifying as something to be a shield, when that thing isn't really solidified to begin with?

Really where's the line between some of these asexuals and the medicalized "hypoactive sexuality disorder"?

So many times I see people talk about "Phew im so glad this asexuality term was invented by the official experts of sexuality so that I know I'm not weird."
Like no, that doesn't solve anything. STAND UP FOR YOURSELF. DEFINE YOURSELF. Don't just be relieved that "phew, im glad there's this clause in what I view as 'accepted society' for me".

Am I being a jerk? Hypocritical? If you agree these are problems, do you have any ideas how to fix? Should I make this a new topic?

@xenosimiana
Well your thing raises some questions, about the subjectivity of things. You could argue that being able to hear is better. And I'd agree, but they wouldn't agree. We'd have to find values. (Hearing makes you safer, makes it easy to communicate. Not hearing....not sure, is less distracting? meh. Also why is safety imporant? I know I'm being contankerous as heck, because that's how people can be.)

Not sure what you mean by "boxes", well I sort of do (labels? models?), but aren't sure what your experience/context with it is.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Aztec12 on Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:38 pm

Lol this was what I always wonder I believe in lifestyle vs orientation, orientation is over limiting and feels like an ethier Or fallacy
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Admin on Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:33 pm

Over the past few years and is ongoing, there've been very heated debates on AVEN over how to define asexuality, with some arguing that the most common definition used is so vague that it's meaningless. Interestingly, the lack of sexual attraction definition used by AVEN, which is criticized now, is more accurate than other definitions from early on in the asexual community's history.

The debates over the definition and how it's enforced are also because of one of AVEN's rules stating that you can't tell someone what they are. You can't say "You are _____" or "You aren't _______" Self-identification is valued, and the rule against telling someone they're asexual or not, is to give questioning people the opportunity to find information that will help them figure out what label fits them the best. For that to work as intended, they need accurate information. I'm sure self-identification is also emphasized because of how subjective internal experiences can be, but boundaries between labels still exist, and even studies on sexual orientations involve the subjects self-reporting.

A lot of the ways asexuals feel broken is because of the pressure to have sex. Wanting it is seen as a fundamental part of being human, and there's the fear of being abandoned by their partners for not having it. Having a label for it helped many say what they are, without having to put it into so many words. It's a shield in a way, but people still need to stand up for themselves. It's not an unbreakable shield.

I know this from personal experience as I've dealt with the pressure to have sex, due to being emotionally beaten down again, and fearing abandonment. I've known of asexuality for years and of the antisexual community too, but I still felt that pressure to do something I absolutely didn't want to do.

Since a deaf community was mentioned as an example, there is a community of deaf people. They find solidarity to not feel broken for who they are, believe that oral communication is overemphasized while other forms of communication are devalued which makes life more challenging compared to for hearing people, and don't want to be pressured to be "cured". Cochlear implants exist and can give the ability to hear, but they usually don't give a person the full range of hearing. The degree varies from person to person. Usually, the degree of hearing they can get from them is very limited, and there are significant drawbacks to using them that some deaf people who could get them thought they weren't worth the drawbacks. I'm not sure if cochlear implants counts as a cure, given how limited in effectiveness they often are.

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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Biscotti on Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:27 pm

"self-identification is valued". Is self-identification of an outside idea such as "asexuality" really self-identification?
On top of that "asexuality" is subjective. So it continues to be a weird mix, a mish-mash of an idea, that you seem to say is only there because it helps a certain population of people. But I continue to argue that such a weak concept doesn't a strong shield or identity make.

The definition issue continues because you continue to use words that don't mean much. 'Lack of sexual attraction'. What is sexual attraction? What is attraction? Because attraction is chosen and can be changed, to what degree depends on it's importance, backstory, reason etc. Just more subjectivity.
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by x Nacht Klaue x on Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:41 pm

hehe, children see an iPad for the first time.. :)

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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by Aztec12 on Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:28 pm

I like how the little one gets to hold the iPad
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

Post by x Nacht Klaue x on Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:43 pm

I wonder something about sexual guys. Imagine if no one had taught you (sexual guy) about sex. Would you (sexual guys) think about women in a sexual way? Would you get crazy if you saw pretty women?

And question to asexual guys. Do you go crazy when you see pretty girls / women?

I guess this question should be asked to grown up feral children (children raised by animals) or grown up children who has been isolated from the world.. The reason why I am wondering is because religious people are saying that God put this desire in the men, and that their huge sexual desire for women is natural..
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Re: Everything about everything and nothing

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